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Shields/En passive

Discussion in 'Creator' started by atusi, May 8, 2014.

  1. atusi

    atusi Member

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    In Game Name:
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    Hey guys. Does a Dark element Axe in right hand, and a non element Shield in left allow you to use the Enchanter crit passive? Or does it need to be a weapon non element?
     
  2. 『The † Jo』

    『The † Jo』 ☞†☜

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    Good question... ill find out.

    Edit*

    Yes passive works the same with the shield.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2014
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  3. brad1219

    brad1219 Active Member

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    Holy mother of..... u serious Jo?
     
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  4. 『The † Jo』

    『The † Jo』 ☞†☜

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    I wouldn't post it without being serious. My crits do not drop from having a shield on. I can show you in game if you would like.
     
  5. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    @jo, is your weapon element or non element? I think the original poster was wondering if the non element nature of the shield would activate the passive even with element weapon equipped.
     
  6. 『The † Jo』

    『The † Jo』 ☞†☜

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    @aleph I understand his question.

    I used a element weak and opposing.

    Then I used a non- element, which all were paired with Shield.(non ofc)

    Result... passive property was still present.
     
  7. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    Yeah, I figured you understood. Just making absolutely sure :).
     
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  8. brad1219

    brad1219 Active Member

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    I tried it and hmm I can't tell.... It's not like I dont trust Jo but I just cant see the difference for myself.....
    Aleph could u do the final check on this if u got time??
     
  9. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    Yeah, I should be able to do it tonight or tomorrow. Have to switch classes, allocate points to passive, then test crit rate with and without shield, and with and without element weapon. So will take awhile.
     
  10. brad1219

    brad1219 Active Member

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    yeah thx aleph. I appreciate it. =D
     
  11. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    Ok, it's time for "creator science" with aleph.

    The question: does the Enchanter passive skill (increase critical rate with non-element weapon equipped) work when you have an element-enhanced weapon in your main hand, and a non-element shield in your left hand?

    The attacker:
    • level 84 enchanter with 0 passive skill level for the first round of tests, and 8 passive skill level for the second round of tests
    • Sledgehammer Di Lv 50 (maxed 5 star) - No element, no orb, level 60 req
    • Sledgehammer Di Lv 50 (maxed 5 star) - Fire element, no orb, level 60 req
    • Magi Guard Lv 50 (maxed 5 star) - no element, no orb, level 70 req
    • HIT of 50
    • ATK of 442-472 with the weapon equipped

    The victim:
    • level 30 acolyte
    • no headgear
    • 4 star level 30 upper (Patch: 92 DEF / 85 MDEF) no element
    • 4 star level 30 lower (Iron: 87 DEF / 69 MDEF) no element
    • 2 Astute Heart Ring+ (each +1 STR / +2 DEX and +120 HP)
    • 60 VIT / 2082 HP
    • DEF 161(215) / MDEF 88(159)
    Testing methodology:
    • Set up private PVP Room
    • Attacker hits the victim 150 times with standard (non skill) attack. (Yes, I tried wield blow, but even with the lower grade weapons than my usual ones the 3 hits of wield blow would kill the victim. Not a very sustainable test methodology.
    • Count the number of critical strikes (I noted how many crits per 10 hits, so I have 15 numbers written down for each configuration)
    Test results:
    • Passive skill level 0 (zero)
      • non element mace in main hand, empty left hand: 12 critical hits
      • non element mace in main hand, shield in left hand: 16 critical hits
      • fire element mace in main hand, empty left hand: 10 critical hits
      • fire element mace in main hand, shield in left hand: 9 critical hits
    • Passive skill level 8 (eight)
      • non element mace in main hand, empty left hand: 20 critical hits
      • non element mace in main hand, shield in left hand: 28 critical hits
      • fire element mace in main hand, empty left hand: 28 critical hits
      • fire element mace in main hand, shield in left hand: 30 critical hits
    The crit rate seems to go up with the increased passive skill level regardless of whether or not there's an element on the weapon, and whether a shield is equipped. Personally, I've recently (prior to these tests) come to believe that the crit rate for any character is based on a combination of the attacker's DEX, HIT, and ATK (for physical) and MATK (for casters) vs the victim's DEF/MDEF and perhaps other factors. The first round of tests, where the number of crits goes down with the fire weapon seems to contradict this, but the second round of tests, where the crit rate is higher with the fire weapon seems to confirm my theory.

    I'm not really sure what to conclude from these results.

    I do have two level 67 creators (one alchemist and one blacksmith) with identical STR, DEX and wield blow. I could probably rerun these tests with those characters if I switch one to enchanter and then level up the passive skill. Meanwhile, I really can't make any recommendations based on the above data as to builds or gear. I'm just glad I don't actively play an enchanter at the moment, so I feel comfortable putting off a decision and don't feel a need to do further research. :D

    Other possible tests:
    • same series of tests, but instead of the shield, try dual wielding, then switch which hand has the element weapon.
    • try again with more hits
    • ensure that hits are one-off hits, and not combos (In the tests above, I sometimes tapped my attack button once, and sometimes held it down for multiple strikes. This didn't seem to affect the crit rate at all.)
    Also note that in all the tests I ran, the shield decreased the damage by about 10%, and the fire weapon did greater damage than the non element weapon. (And no, I didn't write down the damage values.)
     
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  12. 『The † Jo』

    『The † Jo』 ☞†☜

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    /swt

    I need my laptop fixed. Video speaks louder. Like I said you can farm with me some time and see for yourself. I test on mobs cause there stats are pre-set. Now I am not saying im right but, I am comfortable with myself enough to post it. I don't fear things like being wrong and perhaps I am. Hell dex cap rumor is a fine example. All I know is my crit build depends primarily on that passive. There is one test your not doing aleph and that is Healing as well. See I crit 50% more on heal with passive. So I did not just physical damage but, also magic. (Fire bottle, Kernal, ect...)

    To me when I had a shield in place of my normal dagger. I crit just as heavy... any lower dex or lack of passive really screw up my crit mojo.
     
  13. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    Jo, Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, but I'm not disputing what you've found. It's not so much that I didn't believe what you said, and more that someone asked for data, and since I was tired of grinding I decided to run some tests. My own experience playing enchanter has been that the passive is a game changer. Now that I'm playing as a blacksmith I really miss all those crit attacks and heals, even from my 30+10 dex build.

    In any case, I believe that my data proves exactly what you've said, and what the original poster asked: the crit passive does work while using an non-element shield with an element weapon. What wasn't clear was whether the shield was the cause of the passive working. In any experiment we need to remember that correlation does not equal causation. Sometimes we answer one question and what we actually need to do is ask a different one:

    • The original question: does the enchanter passive work when using a non-element shield and an element weapon? Answer: Yes (as proven separately by Jo and aleph). We conclude, based on the correlation that the non-element shield is responsible for making the enchanter passive work when using an element weapon.
    • A more precise question would be: is a non-element shield responsible for making the enchanter passive work on melee attacks even with element-enhanced weapons? Answer: maybe. My data shows crits going down with the fire mace regardless of shield without the passive, and going up regardless of shield with the passive. More data required.
    As I suggested upthread (with less detail), to get a really precise idea of what's going on, we'd need to test:
    • skills (atk/matk)
    • level difference in attacker/victim
    • all the elements on weapons
    • all the elements on armor
    • different types of armor
    • PVE
    • different skill levels of the passive
    • different DEX builds
    • dual wield with various combinations of element/non-element axe and mace
    But that's a lot more work than I'm willing to do. My takeaway is that when I switch back to enchanter I'm going to use an element weapon without a shield for PVE, for max crits and max damage. If it seems like I get less crits when using the element weapon, I'll try adding a shield to see if it makes a difference, and if it doesn't I'll switch to a non-element weapon or do further testing with dual wield.
     
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  14. 『The † Jo』

    『The † Jo』 ☞†☜

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    Lol, sorry my bad I can see why you would think that as I re-read my post.

    I just post it talking to everyone and I was just stating the heal comment as more of a suggestion.

    I agree with that and yeah more tests are to be had. Cause honestly I personally think Enchanter heightens elemental crit regardless of passive. Maybe just me tho...
     
  15. brad1219

    brad1219 Active Member

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    Thats strange the passive was suppose to not work if u had ele on main weapon and empty on left hand. Anyway thx aleph for testing. But there is a small problem with this test. Ur cr was lv 85 while ur test subject was only lv 30ish. This will make ur cr crit a lot regardless of passive or no passive. Would u like to try again with me if u have time? My cr is lv 81 so it should make decent test subject.
     
  16. aleph

    aleph Active Member

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    @brad1219 I could easily have tested vs my 83 lost speller or 83 sniper. (or tested 67 enchanter vs 67 alchemist or blacksmith). I just didn't want to have to wait for respawn or stuns. I'd run into the stun issue vs your cr as well.

    Also, as I may have mentioned, my theory is that crit has more to do with the DEF of your opponent that the level difference. But that's an entirely different set of tests.
     
  17. atusi

    atusi Member

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    Hm. Okay, I will use dark or light element axe (both are the same right?) And a non element shield. Also, I believe Jo had stated that the En buffs weren't effected by element all, or that the element isn't locked? Or something like that.. so could I use the attk buff or def buff with dark or light elements? Primarily dark upper and light lower.
     
  18. Pito

    Pito Member

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    I believe it works as long as u have a weapon / shield without element, either left or right handed.
     

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